you know, i was doing my sadhana right now, and i imagined that someone takes a Mantra from Tivra's teaching, and thinks: "i have no Guru, i found it it the internet, and i have got a right to recite it as it is 3-syllable/20+ syllable", and i cry aloud, i cannot stop, oh what a grief.. please let's have bhakti. there are no stupid rules like in school or in police - you must do these things this way and no other, because director/scheriff said so... we are talking about Love and Power. your Lover may be only in the chat, but if you love each other, you are Lovers. i had years of relations - true and deep - online, before the first meet. i was in prison, she waited for me. i know what i say. so, if a couple may have true relations online, then why not Guru-Shishya? woman needs more than Shishya. then, what about physical meeting with Guru, there is a story of Jesus, Luke 7:1–10 (NIV) When Jesus had finished saying all this to the people who were listening, he entered Capernaum. There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” So Jesus went with them. He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well. --- do you understand? There is no need to argue about Guru, there is, first, necessity to realize some subtle relations deep inside your heart, and second, know that there is Spirit who gives you adhikara to pray and grow spiritually, BUT there is Śakti who doesnt care if some good man allowed you to chant anything you want, - She is the Noble One whom you must be introduced by someone who is close to Her, otherwise you will be a raper with Śakta mantra.. if you feel being introduced, know the introductor as Guru; and know that any siddhi you approach, it is because of the introductor as well as of Devi; and know that if you mistaken the introductor, then the sadhana will have a bad final.

Raman, my apologies for my earlier accusations, though I must insist sadhakas must still place guru in the highest regard, because from a practical view and in the experience of accomplished individuals, guru is always very necessary. To krishna, any guru who asks for large sums of money or payment in general is a joke. This is not even worth discussing or approaching because it is laughable. If these are the gurus you have approached then it only speaks for your lack of judgement of character which is again showing itself here. A guru will show undeniable signs that they are beyond the natural and normal nature of reality. If a guru does not clearly demonstrate this, and cause drastic change in one's life, then they are no guru. While we are on this subject, if a person is living within society, and as well confined to the norms of society, don't ever call them avadhuta.

Hi Amargi, that’s a really beautiful and traditional way of looking at it. I appreciate you sharing that perspective with me.

Kuru, the author didn't just add this recently; it's present in much older editions too. See the bottom of page 784 in the link below. Regarding the technical points you made, I defer to your expertise; however, I must also honor the perspectives of those I have personally met who have attested to the authenticity of this verse: https://archive.org/details/hEDh_sri-vidyarnava-tantra-part-2-ed.-by-rama-chandra-kak-and-hara-bhatta-shastri-sri/page/784/mode/2up

Kuru Sandhyasa, thank you so much for your warmth to me. I wish you the same, and I wish it to every one who feels the Love.

We are asking for scriptural references to indicate whether a guru is needed or not and at the same time questioning if the scripture is superior to a guru? If the end goal is to earn the grace of God, then the same God is the Guru principle. Those who can understand the message provided by revered Tivra need look no further. Those who are unable to accept the same, should find a guru of his caliber or similar, to elevate themselves to understand and comprehend the Guru principle. From there on, the spiritual journey ascends quickly to the highest levels and will help one to realize the Truth for themselves. A beginner is best off finding a guru to understand the nuances of tantra for kick starting their spiritual journey. It is important that they are taught all the details of mantra japa and its components including nyāsas and the mantra pañcāṅga consisting of paṭala, kavaca, stotra, āvaraṇa pūja, mudrās etc.It is absolutely okay to pay a reasonable sum that they can afford for these services, as one would do to learn a course. More details are available in the mantra components article on this site. Any unreasonable requests for huge sums of money to remove obstacles etc. should be avoided. So make enquiries and decide what is best for your needs. Those who are not comfortable with these decisions, can do more reading on this site and other websites dedicated to spirituality and also educate themselves by all possible means. This site is your guide and friend and a partner in your spiritual journey. You may even consider it a guru if you are a mature sādhaka.

Dear Tivra, thanks for weighing in. I'll certainly reflect on what you've said and get back to you. Krishna too has summarised this entire discussion phase in another comment and I believe that'll act as a signpost to beginners and future sadhakas on these points. @Krishna: I second the suggestions to create a discussion forum. The current system of searching for comments and replies thereto is just not very efficient. Let me know if you'd want any help. I'd be happy to assist.

Amargi, you are much more spiritually clear and awakened than the majority who now frequent this community. Please be careful not to fall into any traps online as you very much know better and you have a good path for you. Mangalam te ca datta tava adhvanam niscitam sincatu , praise to you and your guru , please be blessed and continue well on your path

hi Raman, mantra must be received from Guru, from God, - mantra IS Guru and God, so Kali gives Kali, Ganesha gives Ganesha, and no other way. the one who is given the right by deity to give his/her mantra is a Guru. those who take mantras from Guru not in human body are either people chosen in a very strange way or mere liars, it is obvious too. it is easiest and tenderest way for God to give a human-guru to his beloved man, it is better than any other way. it is so simple. the text you gave... i just do not know what to say. just no. the Mantra and its Giver are One. and mantra with no giver is none. amen.

You are right that it does exist within the Chaukhamba Surbhrati Prakashan publication released in 2023 and it may be present in other publications by the same commentator. Still, the syllable count is off, citations are too near and it is contradictory to the original text and other texts. The language and wording is also still strange to me. If you are able to find this same verse in other publications, especially older publications, that will give much more credibility to this. But one finding of a verse in a recent publication which goes so far against the notion of guru necessity and makes claims of easy mantra siddhi without a guru is very backwards in the ideology of what is contained in the authentic tantras, this is fact.