I must mirror Kuru's sentiment and explicitly state my comments harbor no ill intent toward anyone at all. If anything, this discussion is much different from the last in that I feel minimal mudflinging from either side. I don't believe anyone wants to willingly mislead others. In Tripura Rahasya it is said "All the gods to whom offerings are made are my manifestations... The results (of worship) are in accordance with the nature, method, and intensity of the devotion.". Further paraphrasing, we are told that shaivites, vaishnavites and shaktists should not war, but recognize the three paths as one, each suitable for different individuals depending on their karma, constitution and predisposition. So I am not hostile to anyone's approach, and it is precisely because of the universality of the spiritual path that I can draw attention to misleading claims for the readers to draw their own conclusions. Off the top of my head, I do not agree with the claims of fallen Brahma and Enochian angels being the quickest way of destroying karma (so even quicker than Kali) etc. Tivra has given some generally good advice and some of the theological aspects he has spoken about are congruent with the teachings of Raviji. I genuinely believe one should not attempt mantra japa without a guru, yes. There are some happy accidents, and there are also some gurus-to-be who are capable of chanting on their own but which wouldn't ask any question and just follow vayu and latent ishta devata energy. My single issue is that, in the context of Shri Vidya and tantra's growing popularity online, many amateur seekers can be harmed from treating an online commenter as their guru, and even if they could very well feel some potential results at the start, they are not aware of the subtler dynamics and the prices they pay, even if this whole situation is much more the sin of the teacher than it is the sin of the student. Moreover, and perhaps even more importantly, manblunder is Raviji's virtual ashram, and we should stay true to his teachings which have brought us all so many attainments, instead of diluting with questionable paramparas - and even different spiritual systems. This will likely be my last comment on this subject, because I dislike the idea of my sole contributions coming underneath a veil of contradiction. I would like to thank Krishna, Jayanth, Kuru, Nesh, Abhishek, Aditya, Ashwin and all other commenters for their input. For all interested to engage in discussion with me or to relay questions to my guru, I can be reached at herodionherodium@gmail.com. For reference of capable and realized instructors, I would recommend reaching out to Santosh and/or Jayanth, both of this website. -- This comment has been slightly modified. --

Hello Prince, please can you share where you found a copy of the Mahavadavanala tantra? I have been searching for a while and would really appreciate it.

1. siddhalakṣmī 2. guhyakālī 3. siddhakarālī 4. caṇḍayogeśvarī 5. kāmakalākālī 6. paṃcavaktrā mahākālī 7. tumbureśvarī 8. kālasaṃkarṣiṇī 6. pratyaṃgirā 10. kālarātri 11. siddhabhairavī 12. raktakapālinī 13. caṇḍakāpālinī 14. mahābhīmasarasvatī 15. mahāḍāmareśvarī 16. trirūpatārā 17. bhadrakālī 18. ugrakālī 16. kālakālī 20. kṛtāntakālī 21. saṃhārakālī 22. kālāntakakālī 23. kalpāntakālī 24. bhīmakālī 25. phetkāriṇī 26. caṇḍakukkurī 27. jayamangala 28. dhūmāvati 26. svarṇakoṭeśvarī 30. nakuleśvarī 31. kāpālinī 32. jhiṇṭeśī 33. chinnamastā 34. śmaśānakālī 35. śvetacāmuṇḍā 36. paṃcavaktrā guhyakālī 36 uttaramnaya upasana murti from mahavadavanala tantra (

NAMASTE KRISHNA JI, can you please write a article about 8 vaak devi their posture, weapon and mudra they hold, their complexion, dhyan and their worship how they compare to maha Saraswati. Thankyou

A Very good article Jayanth.

I can not speak for others but I have no ill intent or negative emotion towards anyone I have spoken with. If my strong intent has been interpreted as anger, be rest assured I am not angry with anyone. I think the importance of discussion is still in extreme prominence given the subject matter, even if it makes people uncomfortable to have their ideas challenged. Given the state of the platform, and considering the traditions which manblunder was founded upon have been disregarded and the community has shifted entirely, it is the right of those who have been around for a long time to still engage in discussions and challenge the new ideas. Thank you for showing your own sincere intent Kashik, I hope you can understand that we have only intention for the good of everyone, but this process is not always comfortable especially in the beginning. Just as transformation of any type is uncomfortable in the beginning, as is the process of approaching anything in order to cause a change of direction. As is the case with any parampara as well, if one seeks guidance to the entry into any school or acceptance of a guru, they should not cling so hard to the comfort of their own imagination. A genuine sadhana will very much dissolve one's ideas and open new perception and sensation of the world and reality, not cause one to cling in fear and suffer emotional chaos when challenged. There is much knowledge even in the words I have just spoken and more meaning will come if contemplated upon. Of course these words are not my own. But when one is willing to go to any lengths and discard all sense of self, anything is possible, transformation is had and guru can be found no matter what. These beings, and many other influences both of divine and natural, see you and will influence your life even if you do not see them. How you are influences all of these things, one's emotional and intellectual and gross actions are not all that there is.

I humbly request to krishna ji, kuru ji, herodion ji and other sincere sadhak to no longer engage in this debate as you all have made your opinion clear and not ready change your stance aside from agreeing to some degree with other opinion. This debate has reached its conclusion and there seem to be no gap left for other conclusion unless one of you back down which doesn't seem to happening any time soon. I request you all to be the bigger person and let it go. Meaningful questions are going down the list and may not get answered.

Should a person who cannot find a suitable guru not get into mantra japa if they choose that as a means to fulfill their wishes and progress spiritually? The scriptures are unanimous in extolling the importance of a guru. Devi Rahasyam also states the same. But in the absence of a suitable guru, one may take the help of scriptures and proceed. They will eventually find a suitable guru. As I mentioned previously, it took me about 3 decades to find a suitable guru, while I was still chanting the mantras following the instructions from Mantra Mahodadhi and other scriptures. I agree I was very confused and did not follow correctly. This experience has taught me to guide other aspirants to follow the procedures in the manner that was taught to me. There are other alternate ways too and it would be really helpful if these are exposed to discussion and scholarly analysis for acceptance and practice. Also, if you are able to provide references of gurus who are willing to teach and help sādhakas, please do so to help sincere seekers. This would be appreciated by all! Lastly, if one is able to understand the guidance of advanced gurus like revered Tivra, they may take up the same with sincerity and dedication.

Krishna, our ways are different, but you are directly contradicting the scriptures. I do not have knowledge of Devi Rahasyam, but I would like to add the following quote from Ram Kumar Rai's translation of Kularnava Tantra, available on Archive: "Liberation is not to be obtained either by chanting of the Vedas or study of the Sastras. O Viravandite! Jina or Real knowledge alone can give Liberation, nothing else. Neither Aéramas ( four stages of life ) nor philosophies or Sciences can provide the means for liberation; only the Jifana of all the Sastras can give it. And this Jiiana can be received through the words of a Guru. All other ways are deceptive, oppressive; the knowledge of Truth alone is life-giving. " The guru's supremacy is universal to all written Tantras. We do not have the exact wording of Devi Rahasyam, but going by the way you remember it, I believe you misinterpret it deeply. "scripture itself act like a guru to the sincere sadhaka". The emphasis here is on *act like* - not substitution - and *sincere*. It has been spoken about on manblunder before about how some procedures and/or mantras are self-activated. This is what sincerity refers to, the situation where doors open themselves for the honest seeker who dedicates himself fully and abandons attachments for complete surrender to the guru principle. Such a path is opposite to sattvic sadhana but I have witnessed it offer unbelievable miracles to those willing to sacrifice everything and suffer an explosive rebirth. It is exactly for this destructive potential that you should not embark on the tantric journey without the guidance of a guru. To mirror your appeal to world religion, traditionally, it is the shaman who ventures to terrifying places to return with knowledge for his followers, precisely because the teacher has been gifted the constitution for radical self-activated transformation and he wants to impart this gift to as many people as possible; the guru, then, is capable of taking on the karma of disciples so they reap some of the benefit but for only a fraction of the cost. I agree that it is extraordinarily rare to meet a true guru like this, and it is true that one can start doing certain mahavidya procedures on their own, but then the issue that appears is they fall victim to hubris and either stagnate in progression or lose their minds completely or worse. This is the explanation for what might be perceived as elitism or dogmatism to guru supremacy. We must never forget that as seekers we are constantly in touch with forces of inconceivable power which should always be revered and approached with awe. Nama japa, stotrams, Shri Vidya sutras, pranayama, ayurveda, meditation, jyotish, hatha yoga - these are all surprisingly effective and appropriate avenues for the uninitiated to massively improve their lives. For this, one may consult the writings on this website in conjunction with Sadhguru's teachings. Just a year or two of sincere "beginner" sadhana is sufficient to uproot life completely without the risk inherent to all tantric practice. I must add, Krishna, that I am not against you at all and I have had benefit as a result of your writings and engaging in discussion with you. What I write here is mostly for the community, because the danger of unguided tantra and diluted teachings cannot be understated, not out of fearmongering or gatekeeping, but out of genuine desire for humanity's benefit.

In the first chapter itself it's written. In the same publication as Krishna Ji replied. The chapter which tells about diksha.