My previous four questions do not have a correct answer; or rather, assuming such a thing exists, it will not be found in scripture. Regardless, I will quote a great teacher who was guru for many of this collective: "Though this is not appropriate method of initiation, we have to necessarily depend upon electronic media due to time and distance. However, I never liked to be called as a teacher or a Guru, as I always believe, that God alone is the Supreme Guru. All my services are freely available and no monetary gain is involved at any point of time. I firmly believe that, spiritual knowledge and mantra initiations cannot be sold for a price. They are not commodities. They are priceless and if price is determined and paid, it affects both the initiator and the initiated seriously. However, mantra initiation cannot be done to someone, whose face is not known. Mantra initiation is not just sending a mail or initiating over phone. The power of mantra needs to be transferred to the aspirant in the form of a seed, which the aspirant has to nurture and infuse potency to get the best possible results. Results are always not the same for everyone. It purely depends upon one’s faith and sādhana (practice). Personally, I do not encourage aspirants to spend much time in lengthy rituals as I sincerely believe that one should attain liberation in this birth itself." Here, some interesting things are imparted. One of these is that you must not pay for services rendered; it is the guru's dharma and your own karma that allow you to receive diksha in the first place. Wealth is to be offered to the guru of the shishya's own volition, never as a condition, because grace is not a transaction. Even 16th century Europeans realised this is wrong, that you should not pay some spiritual authority to wash away your sins. Secondly, notice how matter-of-factly it is spoken about online initiations and about the lack of ritual. This is the power of a parampara. It is grace from God, coming through the guru, directly entering the disciple as channeled by the specific mental vibrations the disciple is taught to emit and which produce objective effects in the gross and subtle planes (japa). If you look upon any tantric teaching, especially those on this site written by Raviji, you will notice there is great emphasis placed on the sounds themselves. For example, "aum namah shivaya", a is this, u is that, m is something else, and so on and so forth until pages upon pages are filled by letter-by-letter analysis of an apparently simple 3 word mantra. This is used as a way of transmitting things, planting the seed and giving it a direction for it to bloom through the subconscious mind, but also because certain combinations of vibrations are inherently sacred and they work without you needing to chant while you're doing very specific poses in front of overengineered yantras after hours of ritual preparation. This is the power of grace, and it is not "fake it till you make it", by this I mean it does not come in reverse order - you cannot act as if you are graced to obtain grace. Someone was asking here in these comments if he can still do sadhana if he smokes cigarettes and eats meat and masturbates. These are undesirable things to be removed, of course, and you should not fall into animalistic lethargy, but you do not remove these things: they are removed from you. Because if you do sadhana, all the latent consciousness modern life suppresses within an individual will push you in certain ways and to do certain things. But this miracle of God can only come through authentic guru tattva, and everything becomes so simple in that moment when you start acting out of serenity. I have been gifted glimpses at this by my teacher, and this is exactly the place where I speak: a seeker who found his way to peek at joy and who cannot comprehend how we twist it to be so complicated.

Luke 17:11–19 (NIV) Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee. As he was going into a village, ten men who had leprosy met him. They stood at a distance and called out in a loud voice, “Jesus, Master, have pity on us!” When he saw them, he said, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” And as they went, they were cleansed. One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. He threw himself at Jesus’ feet and thanked him — and he was a Samaritan. Jesus asked, “Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? Has no one returned to give praise to God except this foreigner?” Then he said to him, “Rise and go; your faith has made you well.”

you know, i was doing my sadhana right now, and i imagined that someone takes a Mantra from Tivra's teaching, and thinks: "i have no Guru, i found it it the internet, and i have got a right to recite it as it is 3-syllable/20+ syllable", and i cry aloud, i cannot stop, oh what a grief.. please let's have bhakti. there are no stupid rules like in school or in police - you must do these things this way and no other, because director/scheriff said so... we are talking about Love and Power. your Lover may be only in the chat, but if you love each other, you are Lovers. i had years of relations - true and deep - online, before the first meet. i was in prison, she waited for me. i know what i say. so, if a couple may have true relations online, then why not Guru-Shishya? woman needs more than Shishya. then, what about physical meeting with Guru, there is a story of Jesus, Luke 7:1–10 (NIV) When Jesus had finished saying all this to the people who were listening, he entered Capernaum. There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” So Jesus went with them. He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well. --- do you understand? There is no need to argue about Guru, there is, first, necessity to realize some subtle relations deep inside your heart, and second, know that there is Spirit who gives you adhikara to pray and grow spiritually, BUT there is Śakti who doesnt care if some good man allowed you to chant anything you want, - She is the Noble One whom you must be introduced by someone who is close to Her, otherwise you will be a raper with Śakta mantra.. if you feel being introduced, know the introductor as Guru; and know that any siddhi you approach, it is because of the introductor as well as of Devi; and know that if you mistaken the introductor, then the sadhana will have a bad final.

Raman, my apologies for my earlier accusations, though I must insist sadhakas must still place guru in the highest regard, because from a practical view and in the experience of accomplished individuals, guru is always very necessary. To krishna, any guru who asks for large sums of money or payment in general is a joke. This is not even worth discussing or approaching because it is laughable. If these are the gurus you have approached then it only speaks for your lack of judgement of character which is again showing itself here. A guru will show undeniable signs that they are beyond the natural and normal nature of reality. If a guru does not clearly demonstrate this, and cause drastic change in one's life, then they are no guru. While we are on this subject, if a person is living within society, and as well confined to the norms of society, don't ever call them avadhuta.

Hi Amargi, that’s a really beautiful and traditional way of looking at it. I appreciate you sharing that perspective with me.

Kuru, the author didn't just add this recently; it's present in much older editions too. See the bottom of page 784 in the link below. Regarding the technical points you made, I defer to your expertise; however, I must also honor the perspectives of those I have personally met who have attested to the authenticity of this verse: https://archive.org/details/hEDh_sri-vidyarnava-tantra-part-2-ed.-by-rama-chandra-kak-and-hara-bhatta-shastri-sri/page/784/mode/2up

Kuru Sandhyasa, thank you so much for your warmth to me. I wish you the same, and I wish it to every one who feels the Love.

We are asking for scriptural references to indicate whether a guru is needed or not and at the same time questioning if the scripture is superior to a guru? If the end goal is to earn the grace of God, then the same God is the Guru principle. Those who can understand the message provided by revered Tivra need look no further. Those who are unable to accept the same, should find a guru of his caliber or similar, to elevate themselves to understand and comprehend the Guru principle. From there on, the spiritual journey ascends quickly to the highest levels and will help one to realize the Truth for themselves. A beginner is best off finding a guru to understand the nuances of tantra for kick starting their spiritual journey. It is important that they are taught all the details of mantra japa and its components including nyāsas and the mantra pañcāṅga consisting of paṭala, kavaca, stotra, āvaraṇa pūja, mudrās etc.It is absolutely okay to pay a reasonable sum that they can afford for these services, as one would do to learn a course. More details are available in the mantra components article on this site. Any unreasonable requests for huge sums of money to remove obstacles etc. should be avoided. So make enquiries and decide what is best for your needs. Those who are not comfortable with these decisions, can do more reading on this site and other websites dedicated to spirituality and also educate themselves by all possible means. This site is your guide and friend and a partner in your spiritual journey. You may even consider it a guru if you are a mature sādhaka.

Dear Tivra, thanks for weighing in. I'll certainly reflect on what you've said and get back to you. Krishna too has summarised this entire discussion phase in another comment and I believe that'll act as a signpost to beginners and future sadhakas on these points. @Krishna: I second the suggestions to create a discussion forum. The current system of searching for comments and replies thereto is just not very efficient. Let me know if you'd want any help. I'd be happy to assist.

Amargi, you are much more spiritually clear and awakened than the majority who now frequent this community. Please be careful not to fall into any traps online as you very much know better and you have a good path for you. Mangalam te ca datta tava adhvanam niscitam sincatu , praise to you and your guru , please be blessed and continue well on your path